Exploring Black Intimacy and Relationships with Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad

Richard Dodds:
0:00

This is Still Talking Black, a show where we discuss issues affecting blackness from a black point of view. I'm your host, Richard Dodds. On today's show, I'm joined by Dr. Jeannelle, and we talk about intimacy Not just romantic intimacy, but intimacy in regards to friendships and other situations, because there's a lot of times that we talk about intimacy is involved and it's not just a romantic relationship, it's getting to know somebody as well. We explore different ways that black history and black culture and the traumas that we've all, like as black people, have faced affect the lack of intimacy sometimes and the way that we express intimacy in our culture. So, without further ado, dr Janelle, Hello everyone.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
0:51

I am . I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and a psychotherapist in four states South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida, and Georgia. I do a lot of relationship work and I think about it from a mental health perspective. So, if you think in terms of mental health and relationships, we want to talk about every encounter, every engagement, every experience you have with another person is a relationship, and so it really means that you have to pay attention to the emotional intelligence that you are walking around with so that you can build the most effective and intimate relationships possible.

Richard Dodds:
1:36

Yeah, you said that word, intimacy. How do you describe intimacy?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
1:40

Oh, intimacy is a matter of having a deeper cognitive, emotional and spiritual relationship with one another, and when you fall over into the romantic side, then we're definitely talking about you know the physical side of things. Now it's funny because even when we think in terms of this pandemic that took away our ability to connect on a physical level, people really need to touch. So even if you weren't being in a romantic relationship, that hug meant so much touching someone's hand to get a point across or show empathy we didn't realize, I think, how often we really do connect through physical touch. So intimacy is about looking beyond the physicality of the person you see and looking to the cognitive, the emotional, the spiritual and the physical connection you have with those individuals.

Richard Dodds:
2:39

That's something that's like so more. I think it's much more holistic than the way that most people probably generally probably include myself Think about intimacy. Even with my wife, I try to think about ways that we can build up intimacy without physical, like the physicality of it. What are ways that we can continue to grow and get to know each other and really be able to know like I'm surprised. Being able to surprise her is such a great thing, because I feel like those kind of moments bring us closer, just because, since we've been married, we got into the home drama of being married. You've got to work, you've got to take care of the family. We're together, but we're sitting on the couch and watching TV and it's just like, yeah, so intimacy is so important.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
3:22

Yeah, well, that's what that? That's why I talk about it from that space right of a cognitive and emotional, because when you really get to the point where you are talking more about your spiritual side, that's kind of the hopes, dreams, that's the core beliefs and values that you have. When you begin to have that conversation now you can surprise someone. You can't surprise someone that you haven't had a really deep conversation with. Now you might surprise them as in why did you do that? What would make you think I'd like that? But if you want a really good surprise, one that connects you, one that makes them know that you understand who they are at their core, then you have to have a conversation, and that conversation goes beyond when's the next time we're going to connect and hook up and get me some light.

Richard Dodds:
4:17

You know you said that it reminds me of when I was dating, when I was single, because I feel like a lot of that dating time especially like my friends a lot of my friends were single at the same time, I feel like a lot of it was when I was dating, when I wasn't dating with a purpose. We never built intimacy. It's kind of like you learn enough to be able to have a relationship but then, like you, never really other than like physical. You never really got that intimacy like where you really knew their wants and their needs and their desires would make them tick. And I think that was the big difference with when I was started to date with intention. I got a lot more intimate, I say way more of my thoughts and my desires, even being more honest with myself, because I don't think at times I wasn't very honest with myself on what I wanted. Once I got, once I got real with what I wanted myself, it allowed me to be more, to learn more from the people that I was dating.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
5:08

Yeah Well, and I think that that's really unfortunate for most of us. We don't spend that time when we are single by ourselves, truly understanding what we want, what our dreams are, what our desires are. I mean, shoot, whether or not you want somebody to be fit, I'm not talking. What's the new thing? The 666? That sounds demonic all day. He's a whole. He got to be six feet tall and have six pack abs and make six figures. Let's be real. Six figures today. You better be specific. Are we talking 750,000? Are we talking 100,000? Because there's a difference. That's difference between the two. But that goes back to knowing what you truly want, because if you just throw out the generic six figures, I mean my home costs more than six figures and by the time you take the taxes out and pay my mortgage, we can't do anything else, right? So then, if we're talking about what you want in terms of, in terms of how the person looks right, what's their style or what's their body type or whatever that is, then it's a whole another level, right? You're saying six feet tall, but a six-fig tall, really what you mean, or do you just want someone who's fit? Does that represent a fit individual? We don't think about it like that, when you're talking in terms of even, like you said, getting to know someone a little bit more, when you're trying to get to know your mate, and you have to stop for a moment and understand where they come from. Did they grow up in poverty? Did they grow up in a more affluent household? Now you have a deeper understanding of why they do some of the things that they do, and if we did that while we were dating, there's so many more marriages that would not have happened and you'd await it for the right one.

Richard Dodds:
7:11

That was so deep just because I know that I waited so long, I had so many opportunities to be married before I met my wife and I just never. It was something in the back like one I only want to get married once I'm married, that's it. That's it for me. We're going to make it work, baby. But you know so. But it's like relationships I have been in, like I had been in longer term relationships and none of them. I actually got to that point where it's like, ah, let's get married. It's just that I knew, like on a different show that I used to have it was called Relationship Talks with Rick and Amy, I talked about being able to commit at different levels. There were people that I could commit to being someone's boyfriend, but I couldn't necessarily commit on a level of being their husband.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
7:54

Yeah, that's pretty powerful. So having the ability to commit to someone as a boyfriend, but not necessarily as a husband, that kind of knowledge is transformative, because if you'd shared with that female what your level of commitment was, she might have made different decisions. And so now you give yourself and her the opportunity to make quality choices about what you want next. And so that's really. You know, when we talk about my, my book, which I haven't said anything about at this point, but into me, see mastering black intimacy for the relationship you've always wanted, that is about one knowing yourself well enough to know what you want and then being able to see deeply enough into the other person that you understand who they are, not necessarily what they have to offer. I think we should take that away right and think about it in terms of who is this person and then whether or not those two things can come together to create this relationship that would have the ultimate intimacy, where we understand one another from a cognitive, emotional, spiritual and physical perspective. Because the minute that you say to someone, I don't know that I want to be more than a boyfriend and they know that what they want as a husband, they can say, oh, okay, I get that and move right along.

Richard Dodds:
9:24

They can be like okay, or they could be like all right, I'm out Either one. I mean just even coming to that clarification of what I wanted. It just like dating in my latter years. It was just a lot easier. It was just like I remember being in dating women and it would be like, wow, we could probably fall into a relationship for a year or two, but this isn't what I want holistically, this isn't where I want to be. And once I came to that realization when I found my wife, it was just like all right, this is everything, this is it. It didn't take me long to realize that this was the woman that I wanted to be with for the rest of my life, because I knew what I was looking for and what I needed.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
10:05

I think there's a level of vulnerability that comes with that too, because if you're not sharing with the other partner, male or female, the fact that you don't want to be more than, or what they want you to be, right, then you have to ask yourself what is it about me that's making me hold on to this relationship, so that I'm either not alone or not feeling like I'm going from relationship to relationship or living up to what the standard is by society or culture, or what is creating that space where you're not able to be vulnerable enough to share that? Because if you're telling someone this is my truth, I'm not interested in being married, or I'm not interested in being more than a boyfriend, then great people get to decide what they want to do. If you're not sharing that and just feeding off the fruit of the land, then you have to stop long enough to say why am I doing that to someone when I know what they truly want is to either be married or to be in a deeper, committed relationship or whatever that looks like, and that level of vulnerability takes a lot of maturity for both people.

Richard Dodds:
11:26

Yeah, I know that, even thinking about ending relationships, you know, even when you know it's not a fit, so many times you end up fighting for something that you know is dead or something that isn't right and you just continue hitting the wall and it's just like, yeah, once I did hit that level of maturity because, I mean, I have been on both sides I have been chasing after women who said I don't really want to be in a relationship. We can, we can kick it, we get to know each other, we can pretend like we're in a relationship but like I'm not looking to be in a relationship. You know, I mean, and that's basically what it is like, you know, like they call it a situation ship, now Right, but it's basically like a pretend relationship. And I've seen a lot of people go through a lot of that and like, once I like open my eyes, I was like, oh, all right, all right, wow, I don't want to waste anybody's time. I don't want my time to be wasted. I need to be realistic and as I got older to thinking about wanting kids and whatnot, it's like you really kind of had to have to get on my egg and because I didn't want to waste another like you know two, three years in a relationship that wasn't going to end up fruitful.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
12:25

Right, right, and you determine what fruitful is right. You determine what fruitful looks like for a relationship, and I think that's the level of maturity that happens when you really begin to think about what your mental health is like. Right, because when you're sitting in the midst of high levels of anxiety or depression or personality disorders or bipolar disorder or what have you, what begins to happen is those things feed the kinds of behaviors you're going to have in the relationship. And we don't really think about it that way. We think we're just out here, moving about the earth, getting in and out of relationships. But in all actuality there is a foundation that has formulated our perspectives on how we work and manage a relationship, how we navigate that right, and that cultural conditioning, if you will, is what then feeds and informs how we function. That is all a part of our experiences that are held in our brain and the hippocampus, the emotions around those experiences that are held in the amygdala, how we then respond and react in the hypothalamus, in our bodies. All of that plays a huge part and we really think we're just kind of having relationships because this is what we were taught and this is just what we do. No, that's a huge part of our mental health as well, because abandonment will show up. I don't let go of things because I feel abandoned and therefore I'm going to stay in this and I'm going to make the other person stay in it, because if I don't do what they want me to do, they'll leave me. Attachment concerns will show up. Those are all a part of the mental health component. We don't think about it that way. We think we're just making it through the relationship, right. But no, it really is a matter of stopping long enough to ask yourself what do I desire and why Is this what my grandma told me I had to have?

Richard Dodds:
14:36

When it comes to relationships and intimacy? Do you see much of a difference when we're talking about black people versus other cultures?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
14:44

Oh for sure. Yeah, we have a tendency to function Well. Everyone functions out of what they know, right, but we function a lot out of trauma a lot. And I mean it's a given. We have, as a people, experienced a tremendous amount of trauma and I hear people who say, oh, that was back when my grandmother and my great-grands and so forth, but the perspectives that they passed along through the generations still exist. That's kind of how you get to the 666 when you think about it. In slavery they were choosing the taller brawny, more fit, those who could therefore create, hopefully those who would work the fields. And we don't think about it like that. We have to get to a place where we recognize where our perspectives come from and the theories around them. It's like when people I went to PWI, tcu, my first two years of college and I remember hearing all of these white girls say things like I want somebody tall, dark and handsome. You want a black man. I have never seen a dark white man. I could not fathom what that was like. And they were like you know, olive colored skin. I was like a light-skinned black man and they would push back so hard, but when you think about it, even coming out of slavery for them, that's what they wanted. That's what they were sneaking around with. It wasn't just the male masters, if you will, who were taking advantage of the women, it was also the females who were sneaking in to be with the men.

Richard Dodds:
16:45

That's a crazy concept knowing, understanding, it's so much truth in, and I mean it's the same kind of thing it's like really knowing yourself and knowing your past, knowing why, I think so many times we spend time not asking the questions of like, oh, this is my preference, this is my preference, but why is it your preference? I don't know if we spend enough time asking why.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
17:08

And who told you that's the way it had to be? Where did you learn that, and have you experienced enough of anything else to know the difference? I grew up in a household that was exceedingly religious and then spiritual. I think that there is a difference between the two. Religion is about rules and regulations that, I hate to say, negatively impact, but they are so rigid that sometimes you can't be authentically who you truly are. Spirituality gives you the opportunity to really grow and develop into who you are to be, and so what I think has happened over time is that we've gotten so deeply rooted in religious perspectives that we forget to be who God truly called us to be, because if we don't move according to what the book says, that someone's interpreting for us, if not for ourselves right, then what happens is the rest of society begins to look at us different, and so being able to formulate what you like, how you like it, when you like it where you like it, becomes really challenging when you have a group of people telling you that that's not appropriate.

Richard Dodds:
18:38

That's so interesting. Even it's a lot to unpack and I think you said it really well because I am very spiritual myself, so I grew up in churches, so I've seen how rigid sometimes things can be. Some people will be like, oh, you're going to hell if you wear red makeup. It's an interesting relationship that black people have specifically with Christianity. Just because people use Christianity to make us be like, oh, turn the other cheek, and that's the only part that they taught us Turn the other cheek, be a good human being.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
19:21

And it's beneficial to them.

Richard Dodds:
19:23

Yeah, but they never taught it in a holistic way. So I feel like the Bible has been perverted by some people in such other ways. When people say I don't believe in that, I can kind of understand it in certain aspects, just because of the way that it's presented. It's presented as a way of controlling. Some people use it as a way to control other people. I mean, I feel like parents to an extent, whether they do it consciously or unconsciously. Especially when you're growing up in a Christian household, it's certain parts of that that they use to kind of control what you do in your life and I think it's like a love, a love hate, Like you said, for lack of a better word, it's like a love hate kind of relationship.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
20:02

And again, I don't think it's a love hate relationship with God. It's a love hate relationship with the way in which religiosity is passed down through the generations. And I mean, you know, earlier you said you want one marriage and you ain't getting no mow, and that's it Now. That's it now. So it's interesting because I will admit so, I've been married twice, and I will admit that my second marriage was because I was literally told it is better for you to marry than to burn. And I was isolated. My parents wouldn't sit with me at church. I wasn't allowed to sit on the front row where we normally sat. I would, until I made the decision that I either was no longer going to be dating this person or I was going to marry them. Now, years later, what I did, of course, was, according to the word, I'm going to follow the scriptures, I'm going to be a woman of God, I'm going to be the virtuous wife, I'm going to write, do the things that need to be done. But I knew there was something wrong. 23 years later, well, 20 years later, he's diagnosed by the US Navy with narcissistic personality disorder. And I'm going. I knew something. Oh, my gosh right, like I knew it. I knew it. And so I said oh, this is great. Okay, now that we know, let's figure out how we I mean, we can't cure it, but we can manage the symptoms, right. And he said I'm sorry, I like me the way I am, I'm not doing that, I'm not changing. Accept it or don't. And I said I can't any longer because it's killing me literally. It was killing me, but I loved him dearly and I wanted us to be friends, but we can't because of the disorder. Right, and that's hard, because what I real realize is, if it had not been for that religious perspective, I would not have spent that time in that marriage, experiencing what I experienced and I'm not going to say it was all horrible, because you know, I believe that God creates spaces where you can grow in something but also subjecting my children to a narcissistic disorder that literally hurt, and narcissism hurts horribly. And if you don't know what you're dealing with, you don't know how. I mean we laid prostrate before God, I don't know how long. For many years I was always on the altar, I was before. People ask and help me, show me what I'm doing, and so. But when the diagnosis came, I went woo, this is good, now we know what we're working with.

Richard Dodds:
22:51

You know how to attack it once you know the why.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
22:53

Right, but I can't control anybody, that's so true that is impossible to do. God doesn't do that, and a wife and the Holy Spirit are the only two things that are called help in the Bible. But if you think about it the Holy Spirit does not make us do anything. He tries to lead, tries a guide and, you know, help us out with understanding and so forth, and so I can't make a person change or do better or do different. So eventually I had to say I have to take care of myself, and it was the hardest thing I think I've ever done, because I love marriage, I think marriage is wonderful and I love being in relationship and I think it's fantastic when you're doing it with someone else who wants to do it with you, right? And so that's why mental health and relationships is so important for all communities.

Richard Dodds:
23:52

Yeah, I think even for me, like outside of even a religious aspect, I just knew that it's just so much to share your life with someone, someone. Give up your I mean you don't give up your individuality, but it kind of morphs just because you're giving up your time. You're giving up a huge part of your time. I mean, like I used to have a house by myself. Now I have a house with family. You know, it's a complete different and instead of doing things that way, I want to do it. It's like you have somebody else to consider, absolutely. And so it's like I just knew, like I just really took my time, just because it's like I can't do this twice. I don't want to like mentally, like knowing myself I wouldn't want to do it more than once, you know what I mean Just cause it's so much to go through Absolutely, and that was my perspective too.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
24:38

And you know, if that happens for me again, like I'm not, I am not asking God what his vision is at this time, but if that happens for me again, I feel the exact same way, that that is one of the reasons why I was there so long is because I literally spoke in this. That's the other thing. When you speak something out of your mouth, the other be careful, cause words have so much power. But I literally spoke out of my mouth that I don't ever want to be divorced again and, unfortunately for me, I was married to someone who heard that and took that and used that against me. That was my situation. I don't think that's everybody. I think for the most part, we have to learn how to communicate effectively. We have to learn how to regulate our emotions. We have to learn how to dissect what we truly believe versus what the culture has told us we should believe. We have to learn what our own values are and our truths are and then find the person who's willing to accept and walk through that with us. And it's possible. It is possible when people say you can't have your cake and eat it too, you can at least have the frosting and the flavor and the you know, but work it out before you get in it and find out that you, you know, you, you eating key lime pie and they eating, you know, rhubarb, right yeah.

Richard Dodds:
26:12

When, when it comes to relationship, I always think one of the most important things is trying to get on the same page and understand what things mean to you and your spouse or whoever you're dating, just because, like I've seen so many times, like where you talk about especially like intimacy, like when you grow up, when you grow up Christian or you grow up in religious at all, like you know, like if you have sex, that's like such a outside of marriage, like there's such a big thing You've got to get married and to burn you.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
26:37

You heard?

Richard Dodds:
26:39

So I know what you mean. So it's like for a person like like, who was like religious, like that, like for them having sex is such a big thing, but it's some people who was like sex is just ah, it's just an afternoon. Yeah, you know what I mean. So it's like understanding what those things mean and I've seen so many people being in long relationships and not understand, like what, what it means, never really get on the same page, but they've been together for five years and then they get married.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
27:09

I'm going to take that to a whole another level too. So not just on the same page, but within a few lines on the page together, because if I'm at the top of the page and my partner is at the bottom of the page, ready to turn the page once again, we have a challenge. So then you're talking about the possibility of disappointment and resentment and you know irritation and frustration, because I want to turn the page, I want to see what's next and I got to wait for you. And it's one thing to be waiting for someone who is only a few lines from where you're going, but if you're waiting for someone who just started the top of the page and you're on the last line, that can be really tough. Now, in your twenties and in your thirties even, that's more. That's easier. When you hit those forties and fifties and you've been running and you read half of the novel and they're just now starting at page one, that becomes far more challenging. Your decision making is very different at that point.

Richard Dodds:
28:06

That's very true. I can definitely relate to that Cause. When I started to get in my late thirties I was like, oh, like I don't really like that's, that's when that I don't have time to play like really hit me. It's like if I really want to get married and I want to start a family, it's like I need to really figure out what I want, and not even just what I want. I think more importantly is like what I needed and find someone who like the biggest compliment my mom could ever give someone. And when she met my wife for the first time before we were married, the biggest compliment she ever gave her is like oh you, you are so yourself around her and that's like the biggest compliment. Because when I don't have to change and she doesn't have to change and we can be 100% authentic around each other, I had never experienced anything like that. I didn't even think that was possible.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
28:55

Yeah, I, I, I know it's possible. I, I, yeah, I know it's possible. It's really important not to just lose yourself. I sometimes hear people say things like I would lay down everything for her or I would give up the world for him, and I think to myself that's not what you really want to be doing. What you really want to be doing is figuring out how you can continue to be your most authentic self and still incorporate who the other person is and you're. You're going to change over time. I am not the same person in my fifties because, yes, I'm 52 years old. I'm happy about that. I love my fifties. In my fifties, though, I'm not the same person I was when I was 20 and even 30. Now, my the core of my values are the same. What I truly believe, like I totally believe that Jesus is my Lord and savior. You can't, can't, do nothing about it now. You can child, that's done, that's there. I've had that since I was a little a little person, right. But I have changed in my perspective about money, right? So whereas I might have been one who would kind of go and buy and do whatever back in the day and wasn't really thinking about that much about my credit score, I thought about it because my parents were on it, but it wasn't top of mind. I really wanted the things I wanted, and so forth. Now you can't pay me good money to mess up my credit score. I've had people come to me and ask me things like you know, will you co-sign for me? I wish I would, not my child, not my parent, not my. No, now I might help you by giving you the money you need to do your down payment and then, if I've given it to you, it's yours, because I'm not one to come chasing you to get something back. I have to. But I'm not cosign if nobody ever and never have.

Richard Dodds:
31:05

My wife would be. That would be the equivalent of it, but you know it would be ours anyway. So, aside from that, no, no, I'm totally, I am totally with you.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
31:15

Yeah, I'm not talking about your partner, right? I'm talking about a family member, because that's another type of relationship. You said, every encounter, every engagement, every experience you have with another person is a relationship. So there's an opportunity to determine whether it's going to be a really great and intimate connection or it's going to be one that kind of puts you on the opposite sides polar perspectives and you just kind of go, OK, well, you know, that's who that is and you keep it moving right. But even when it comes to family relationships, you have to figure out where your boundaries are, and my entire family knows that's one for me. Now, back in the day, I might have done something like that. Oh sure, no problem, I'll cosign.

Richard Dodds:
32:00

Not now. That shit put us out. Gone, gone. So even so, when I'm thinking about, like how, like the black community and intimacy, it seems like I don't know. I almost feel like we aren't always as intimate with intimacy as our understanding, our wanting to have a better knowledge, or even asking the why, like how important is it for us just as a whole, like black community, to have a better relationship, a better understanding of what intimacy is and why we should actually embrace it? Well, it's huge because we.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
32:42

What we know statistically is that we have the highest rate of divorce at 30% in the US. We have in the southeast which is where I am, in Charleston, south Carolina the highest rate in the southeast, which is just above 21%. We have across religions we, the black church, have the highest rate of divorce, right at 19%. So intimacy that ability to be open and vulnerable and reach beyond the physical person is vital if we're going to have any success at keeping our relationships intact, and one of the ways that we know we can thwart the wealth gap that exists, a lot of the scarcity and insecurity that exists with having to work in institutions that are racist, dealing with the structural racism that exists, the systemic racism that exists. One of the ways we do that is through marital relationships or partnered relationships that are committed for long term. Right, I'm not saying everybody has to get married. I'm just saying that that's one of the ways that we contend with those issues and concerns. I'm also not saying that if you get married, you will not have anything to do with wealth, so please don't take that from what I'm saying either. What we know, though, is those families that are able to, if you will be on the same page around the levels of intimacy and connection they have in these spaces of cognitive, emotional, spiritual and physical components, that their relationships are stronger. So it's vital that we become more vulnerable with one another and that, in being vulnerable, we have safe spaces with which to speak, safe spaces with which to bring our challenges to. So if you're going to tell someone your spouse that you're having difficulty with feeling inferior to someone at work and they look at you and go why are you being a punk? You're not likely to go to them for help anymore.

Richard Dodds:
35:10

So disconnect.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
35:12

It's beyond disconnect. It really is. It is a stabbing of another soul when you cannot be empathetic, particularly when it's a romantic relationship that has all the other emotions tied up in your ability to just be safe. It's like murdering your partner.

Richard Dodds:
35:40

It's definitely a betrayal and I've been in relationships that has had that happen, where you go to confide and really all it takes is like one time, like one really good time, to be like I'll never bring anything like this to you again, and it's such a sad thing just because I feel like it's not healthy to be in a relationship where you put never can I do this again with my partner. That seems so scary to me now.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
36:09

Yeah, Well, and that comes from not having taken the opportunity to be authentic in the dating relationship. It's like you said a moment ago, if you spent, you know, that couple of years just kind of flittering around and going places and having a good time, but not having the deep conversations about your core beliefs and values, about your hopes, dreams and desires, your expectations for how a relationship would function, beyond just, you know, don't be looking at the girls, but when she, when she walked by the girl got a butt, like what? So I mean beyond that and really stopping to talk about what it means, if you feel like you happen to be attracted to someone else and you need to come and talk to me about it, how do you want me to take care of you if you become ill? What does that look like?

Richard Dodds:
37:07

What do you need? What, yeah, that's so important. And I think like you, especially when you think about the United States, united States was not made for a single person to succeed like long term, like it really wasn't set up for like one person that's just come out here and conquer. Like there are the exceptions, is always going to be the exceptions, but like America was built for couples, it really was. And like the thing that I've seen a lot of times and it seems like in the black community, it takes a lot longer for us to actually go from dating to like being engaged or to being married. Like it seems like it takes a lot more years on average. It's like, oh, when are you guys gonna get married? We only been dating for five years. Calm down, you know what I mean.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
37:51

But, like some other counterparts, and I know people will be like. She thinks slavery got everything wrapped up in it. But the truth of the matter is, before we came here, we really did have a handle and a hold on what it was to be a family. We had come entire empires that were based on our family connection but also our community connection. It wasn't just about family but community, because when you think about it, oh gosh, zulu shocker, zulu's mother was a single mom. Did you know this? She was a single mom. Now, you know good and well, in today's time and age, we're like oh, look at this, all these single mothers running around. I'm not telling people to go out here and become single mothers, please don't hear that from what I'm saying but she was a single mom. She got pregnant by someone that they do not mention in the history books, right, but the community rallied around her because she was a strong woman. And here we had one of the most fierce warrior kings in the African nation, a continent, right, but you don't know what talks about her. No one has anything to say about her. So before they came and swept us up and did the transatlantic slave trade, right, and got us over here, separated us, took away our language, took away our ability to connect and be a community, we didn't have those issues and concerns and then think about the fact that they honestly took the best of the best. Now I'm not saying there any. You know, in Africa now is the worst. That's not what I'm saying. I always have to do that. What?

Richard Dodds:
39:46

I'm saying is at that time?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
39:48

why would they take the weakest?

Richard Dodds:
39:52

Why would you try to build?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
39:53

something based on the worst of the population. No, you would take the best and they brought us over here and broke us down such that we didn't have an appreciation for marriage because we weren't allowed to be married. We didn't have an appreciation for raising a family because we weren't allowed to raise our families. Now, there came a period in time where we there were families that were able to do that, when you look at certain communities, but the truth of the matter is that wasn't our existence, that wasn't what we were able to do in the US and that gets scripted on our DNA.

Richard Dodds:
40:31

It was something that you were talking about when we talked previously about the man that were used just to impregnate women.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
40:38

Yeah.

Richard Dodds:
40:40

Can you speak on that a little bit Well?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
40:41

I mean, when you think about it, that was their whole purpose, right? So why would we now think it would be completely different if the design for that black man and the way he was formulated, if you will right Is written on his DNA that what he's supposed to do is go and populate the earth? So what we know from statistics in all actuality is that African American men have more sexual partners than any other culture, any other race or ethnicity. It makes sense. When they were slaves, that is exactly what they were supposed to do. So throughout the history. When you go into the barbershop, when you're standing on the corner, when you're talking with your friends, when you're telling your story about how you lost your virginity which was really rape at 10, at 8, at 14, at 12. That trauma has been normalized to be acceptable. And now what we have is, from time to time, whole generations that are just flittering about. And so the way we solve that is by understanding our history. And when we understand the history, we then say okay, so what's the solution? What do you really want? How do you want to function in this earth? What do you want out of life? Because if what you want is to be a man who is wealthy, cares for his family, has solid relationships, then what you don't want to do is, from 17 or 16 to 25, have four or five children that are not going to be with the woman you decide to marry, where you're going to have four or five more.

Richard Dodds:
42:37

When you think about it, it does make sense, because it was a systematic breakdown of the black household, I mean, and it lasts at way past slavery.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
42:46

Oh my goodness, yes, I mean shoot. Reagan did a horrible disservice when he came up with the welfare queen, who happened to actually have been a white woman, but we won't go there, right.

Richard Dodds:
42:57

But even in thinking of that, I think about how important it is to have mentorship and community, just because community networking, so knowing people who've done it before, it's like thinking about even when I had went to college. My parents had did some college you know what I mean but they didn't know what the full college experience was. So instead of having someone that I could talk to to give me what to expect, what to plan for, it's like I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me, knowing exactly what they were doing when they got to school. But some of the other cultures that I saw, they knew exactly what they wanted to do, they knew what to expect. They had a job waiting for them or they were going to take over a part of a business. And I look at even some of the people that I graduated with. I'm like wow, their root was like so much more direct. It was like so much I had to learn just to get to where I am now.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
43:50

So imagine what that did to your mental health the days where you had high anxiety because you had no clue, where you had ruminating thoughts because you were trying desperately to figure it out and you could not come to a decision. Where there was helplessness and hopelessness, where there were days where it was depression. See, people think depression is just a matter of you will always be depressed if you are diagnosed with depression. But there's episodic depression might last four months, maybe a year where they were moments where you just could not see that the environment you lived in was creating a situation where narcissistic personality disorder was being developed, because we don't know if that's environmental or biological Right. What we do know is that a lot of people from a particular environment seem to have narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, right. So if you are working with a marginalized community, as a clinician like I do, I have to be thinking about what are these systems and institutions that have created this space where the mental health is now diminished such that now our relationships are impacted? And if we're not having that conversation, then we're not having the mental health conversation, which is the middle, the connector between the two, so that if we can solve some of the issues here around your emotionality, around your thought processes, around behaviors, if we can solve some things in this mental health area, then we can begin to bridge the gap of solutions for the challenges that exist in our communities. And I know we're going to end in a bit, but I'm going to give you these statistics so you understand how deep this is. So these come out of our 2022-2023 statistics. Right In the African American community, we have approximately 14.2% of the population within the US and of that population, we have somewhere in the neighborhood of about 7.2 million who have been diagnosed with a mental health condition in the course of a 12-month period. That doesn't mean that all of them will take it into the next 12 months. It just means in that 12-month period. So we're talking diagnosed because we know there are many more who are not right. That means the city of Philadelphia, houston and Chicago together, all their population, not just the African American people, but everyone who lives in those three cities. That's what we're looking at for those within our own community who are living with a mental illness. Now, if you happen to be connected to someone and we know if it's 7.2 million people, you probably are right. If you're connected with someone who is diagnosed and getting treatment, you're probably having a better relationship with them than you are with those who are not diagnosed and not receiving any kind of treatment, mental health and relationships. That's the way we have to be thinking about how we rebuild our communities. Whether you're already married or looking to get into a marriage or having a relationship that's vital to your success at work, or just being able to go to church and not be mad at people. She thinks she's better than me. Nobody thinks they're better than you. Do you think they're better than you? They're fine, they're not. See. Well, the minute you can move out of that frame of reference, that mentality, you now can open yourself up to receive the knowledge of how do I get through college, how do I decide what my plan is for a career, how do I make decisions about who my mate's going to be, how do I raise these children in a way that they are successful in the future Is the greatest generational wealth we can bestow is emotional and mental wellness. Without it, as a people, we are in trouble.

Richard Dodds:
48:28

I know that we talked before that you do training for other counselors, right? How important would you say that it is when trying to find a counselor, Is it really important to have someone who understands your traumas and your background? When I was getting married, I dated interracially. I've dated other nationalities and whatnot. When it came down to as I got older, I just really thought that a black woman when it came to preferences, my preference was a black woman, just because a black woman would understand what it means when something happens to a black person and it's televised. You know what I mean. I'm not saying that like a non-black woman wouldn't, but I wanted somebody who could really relate. So how important is that when you're looking for a counselor? How beneficial is that to have someone that shares your experiences?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
49:25

Let me start by saying that all skin folk and kin folk it's true, very true.

Richard Dodds:
49:30

So we're not a monolith, so we have to recognize that sometimes we might be able to do that.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
49:39

We might live in the same skin but not have the same experience. So it's cultural competence that really makes a difference in a therapist and that's what I teach and train is cultural competence through immersion. So those who come into my practice and work directly with me get to go to every fraternity and sorority kind of meetings that I'm going to where the public is invited. They get to go to all of the black history events and I require them to be there. They you know, if we're doing the black food truck, you come into black food truck. We're doing all of that because I want you to be a part of a community so that you understand that everything you see on television is not real. I mean that happened to that person, but it doesn't mean that that's what's happening in an entire community and a lot of times people cannot fathom that that's true and they'll say things well, I have black friends. That's not what we're talking about. What you're talking about is the person that you know at work around the water cooler. I'm talking about an intimate relationship with somewhere, one where you know their kids, their kids know you. You have dinner together at their home. From time to time you walk in and you could tell the difference in how the house smells, because they cook with seasonings that you don't have in your cabinet. Right, that is an intimate relationship with someone from another race, ethnicity, culture, etc. So the importance in selecting a counselor is really about their cultural competence and not necessarily about whether or not they look like you. It's really about their ability to empathize and listen, because we have a tendency to be narrative in our perspectives, so we speak in storylines and if you're not willing to listen to the story over and over again till you get the part that you can say, ah, I understand now. Okay, that connects to this. That might take four sessions because we're not going to be comfortable right away. Now why is that? We're not comfortable? Because you know what your mom and daddy told you. What goes on in this house stays in this house. So it's going to take a few sessions before I open up enough or realize that I can trust you enough that I can tell you what really happened in my home.

Richard Dodds:
52:03

That's so well said. I love everything about that, so true. I so can relate. You talked about it a little bit earlier. You mentioned it with your book, with your new book. What can people expect when reading that?

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
52:20

So they should come with an open mind, first of all, because it's really important to recognize that I dig deep. I have case study in the book. Someone asked me if you know both genders would appreciate it, and I really think that, more than anything, men are going to appreciate it. I speak to a lot of my male clients who had experiences that a lot of men will not talk about, and so I think men will really begin to go oof. I wonder if I could open up like that and if they read it with their partner. Right then they have this opportunity to build on that vulnerability, because I talk about feelings and where they come from and how we. So it's open mindedness, it is the ability to have an appreciation for each gender, it is mastering black intimacy for the relationship you've always wanted, and yet recognizing that they're probably through chapters that speak specifically to black concerns, what we have lived with and gone through. And the rest of the book is the information that, as you said a moment ago, we just didn't, we weren't privy to, and now I'm trying to put it in a space where it's put it where the goats can get it. This tax here it is. So I hope that the two populations I was speaking to get an opportunity. For one, for us to say, ooh, I hadn't thought about it like that, I could do better. And for my colleagues to be able to say, oh, my goodness, I need to be more culturally competent because I wasn't aware that racism impacts black intimacy.

Richard Dodds:
54:20

Thank you so much for sharing so much and giving so much good, just goodness.

Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
54:26

My pleasure, it is my calling and my purpose, and without you guys I couldn't do it. And I want to be authentic to me.

Richard Dodds:
54:34

You definitely did that. Thank you Again. I'd like to thank Dr Janelle for coming on the show. If you'd like to learn more about her, you can find information about her and her book in the show notes. Still Talking Black is a Crown Culture Media LLC production. You can find more about Still Talking Black at StillTalkingBlackcom. And until next time, keep talking.