Pioneering Pathways: A Journey Through Medicine with Dr. Morris, Dr. Walker, and Dr. Boykin

Richard Dodds:
0:00

This is Still Talking Black, a show where we discuss issues affecting blackness from a black point of view. I'm your host, Richard Dyes. On today's episode, I'm joined by three of the five authors of the book the Game Plan, which is a book that helps guide women through med school. So, without further ado, I'll leave it off to the doctors.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
0:18

Good morning. My name is Sylvia Morris. I am a physician from Los Angeles, California. I attended the University of California at Berkeley and went to medical school at Georgetown University School of Medicine, where I met my co-authors that you will hear from shortly. I went to public health school at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and I am very much a beach girl and very excited to talk to Richard Dodd today for Still Talking Black.

Dr. Angela Walker:
0:51

Good morning. I'm Dr Angela Walker. I am an OBGYN and I trained at Georgetown School of Medicine along with the co-authors for the Game Plan. I am a daughter, a mother, a wife. I am currently in the Atlanta area. I've delivered babies for almost 23 of my 25 years. I'm currently working as a medical director, as well as a speaker and a coach in promoting women's health and wellness and, ultimately, joy.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
1:29

Good morning everybody. It's so nice to be here. I am Dr Diane Boykin. I grew up in New York, I went to Wellesley College in Wellesley, Massachusetts, and then came down to Washington DC for Georgetown University School of Medicine, where I met my co-authors. I did my OBGYN training at Johns Hopkins University and I currently am in private practice. I work for the Mid-Atlantic Permanente Medical Group and I am also a mother, a wife, a friend, a daughter, and I'm also now a top doc for Baltimore's magazine.

Richard Dodds:
2:16

That's amazing. It's great to have Allie on the show and it's great to talk to you all and you have such extensive backgrounds and I'm glad y'all tagged the things that matter said mothers, and that's beautiful to include that in an introduction too. So I have a question for all of you what made you want to go into medicine, like what made you want to be a doctor?

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
2:40

Well, it's the only thing I've ever wanted to do. My mother was a nurse, so I'm the first position in my family. My mother actually went to nursing school in Chicago at Providence Hospital, which is, I think, no longer. My mom is from Saginaw, michigan speaking of Michigan Absolutely and I was exposed early on to physicians actually black physicians, black dentists, and certainly all my mom's friends were nurses and I just thought this is a good thing to do. It's a noble profession, certainly the adage about being able to help people. But I'm definitely the kid that from the very beginning, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a doctor. So here I am and grateful.

Dr. Angela Walker:
3:31

Yeah, our stories are, tracked, a little bit the same in that I've known, probably from the age of five, that I wanted to be a physician. However, I had no experience. I mean, I can say that my preventative medicine was going to sleep and eating well, and that was it. I went to the doctor when I was sick and to get my shots, and that was essentially it. So there were certainly some nurses in my family my dad had nine brothers and sisters but I didn't have experience with them directly, I just knew of them, and so I can't really tell you why I just knew that kind of what you'll hear a lot of doctors say. I always wanted to help people, always thought I wanted to be a pediatrician though Love pediatrics still do but it was in medical school. Once I delivered that first baby, I was like, oh no, this is it, and I love that track. But yeah, my whole career through school was geared towards medicine and I did have a pivot at the end of college and because I didn't, you know, I got into. I was waitlisted for a school but didn't get in initially and worked in pharmaceutical sales and got a taste of having money, a company car and, you know a track for a decent career. And luckily the company I worked for back then was Merck and they had us do preceptorships with doctors, and so I got to go in with a cardiologist into the cath lab and with the GI doing colonoscopy and just realized I missed the mark and had to do what I needed to do to prepare and apply again. So that was, that was my track. So I did have the luxury after I got into medical school of having some cousins at that point that had entered medicine. That gave me some guidance. That was my experience.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
5:43

From the time I was little, I had an interest in medicine and I had different exposures, while in high school working in a pathology lab one summer and then going on into college. I did not have family members that were in medicine. But I always remember this one experience and I say this to anyone that's out there the greater community can sometimes really spur us all on, and so my mother had a hair salon at the time and I was her shampoo girl on the weekend time working to help out, make some money. Anyway, I always remember this one conversation I had with a lady when I was talking about what do I want to do in life and I was considering going to nursing school and again, nothing wrong with nursing school for all the wonderful nurses out there, but I was taking it because I thought it was the easier route than going to medical school. This was when I was in high school and I always remember this conversation with this lady over the shampoo bowl where she said do you want to be the person that's in charge and running the ship or do you want to take orders? And that was a very pivotal moment in my life because I made that decision that I wanted to be the captain of the ship and as a physician, you're the person that's really running the show and directing the care, and so I say that to your audience that sometimes we have people in the community who can really give positive influence, and this woman has no idea that that was such a pivotal moment in my life and helped push that direction that ultimately led to me going into medicine.

Richard Dodds:
7:55

That's amazing. I always say you never know what little seeds you plant that could grow into something in somebody else and it sounds like she's just planting the seed in you and you're like, all right, that probably changed the course of your life. That's amazing. It did, it did and so it sounds like a lot of similar things and all of it. I just said for Dr Diane but how important was it to see people that look like you in medicine and feel like all right, I can be a doctor. I've seen other people do it like I can do it myself.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
8:32

For me it was really important and certainly, as I've gone through my career, I've been in spaces where I'm the only person, but it has always. It was helpful for me in sort of my formative years to even if I didn't have people in my family that were physicians by the time I got to Berkeley. I met with other pre-med students who were people of color who either had physicians in their family. One of my good friends in particular, dr Carlton Louis. He was really encouraging and said yeah, absolutely You'll be a doctor, because there are moments when you are not certain that you are told conflicting things by people who don't have the ability to see and to believe as much as what's possible.

Richard Dodds:
9:28

Wow that's powerful.

Dr. Angela Walker:
9:30

I would say again, I didn't really see a lot, I just knew that it was possible and I think that was because of my parents, when they knew what I wanted to do, never made it seem like that was something that's not attainable. Of course that's what you'll do, and my father was I mean his whole family very big proponent on getting as much as you can out of your education and going as far as your potential allows you, and so I just never felt that there were limits. I can say now, after being in practice and being in medical school, for example, having those African-American physicians ahead of us that would come and talk to us in our group settings, that was very valuable just to see, OK, there are people ahead of me that are doing this, that are successful and, as Dr Morris said, encouraging us along and giving us that, that mentorship, if you will.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
10:48

So for my formative years I didn't see black physicians and black professionals. I grew up on Long Island, new York, and very much a predominantly white community, and so even in my graduating high school class there were 360 students, five of us were black, and so there wasn't even a strong grouping of African Americans that were really, you know, excelling academically. So it wasn't until I got to college when I went to Wellesley and was amused to be in this awesome space of other African American women who were excelling academically. And then on to, of course, georgetown and meeting the co-authors. But as far as the role models that came much later in life and I think back to Georgetown, dr Chabo, who was, I believe, the medical director for OBGYN department, and he was just a wonderful inspiration and certainly probably contributed to me going into OBGYN working with him. And then the second one that I want to highlight is Dr Raymond Cox, who was the first African American chairman of the OBGYN department at the hospital that I worked at for a long time Ascension Healthcare C, nagnus Hospital, and it is so important to have those role models and people that you can look to and talk to and just get some guidance. So, again, for all of your listeners. It is important to try to find that mentor and as someone who you can gain inspiration from.

Richard Dodds:
13:01

Yeah, that's amazing Because there's so many times, especially as minorities, whether it's the world or whether somebody specifically they tell us that you can only be a few things and we can't excel in everything that we want to excel. I say that I feel like black children's dreams usually get crushed a lot quicker than other children just because it's like the reality, like you have to have to talk at a young age and kind of like burst the bubble. So it's like it's incredible to always have people in your corner that are like pushing you, saying like no, you can't actually do the things that you want to do, and I just think that's like in a very important part and it sounds like all three you have like people in your life that kept pushing you forward. It's like, no, you got it, and I guess we can't get anywhere really without like support.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
13:56

So but I would say that you only need one person. It's nice if you have more than one person and that person probably changes over the course of your, your lifetime. So I distinctly remember when I was an undergrad, going to the career office and talking about you know, I want to be a doctor because my mother had dropped me off at Berkeley so that I could graduate, so that I could go to medical school. That was the plan, because it was my plan, and she was like look, I have four years of money for you at this school. So this is what we're. You know, whatever you do, you need to finish in four years. It's more like four and a half. But when I went to the career office and I'm telling this counselor, you know I'm going to med school yes, I had probably average science grades. My non science grades were really good, and she told me I couldn't be a doctor. And I was like what, what do you mean? It was shocking for me to hear that and I discounted that because at we had something called T8, t8, which was sort of the EOPAA office, which of course now they don't have anymore. It's been renamed, but nonetheless there were people there. So LaWonga and Sam, and you know all of these people who were my tutors for my science classes. They would say to me oh yeah, love, you'll be fine. And there were other classmates, upper classmates, who were applying to medical school and we're getting in and we're successful. So you know, every time I move, there's at least one person that says you know, hey, you can do this, because in those moments when you're not certain, when things are not going as you have planned, you need someone that is going to encourage you and sort of bolster you against the world, and it may not necessarily be within your own family. I think that the universe brings you the person or people that you need at the right time. We just have to be open.

Richard Dodds:
16:12

Wow, yeah, that's something like people are saying that you couldn't see. You even had to face adversity there. So, like, what was it like? Because I'm sure, as people like, when you think about the intersectionality of being a black female, there's objections that society puts on you. So it's like even like you know, like, oh, like I'm sure, like, have you ever had the instance because I've heard other doctors say this where, like, you walk into the room and it's like, oh, I'm waiting for the doctor, and it's like I am the doctor. So what was medical school like, being like a black woman? Like, was it difficult, or were you able to find those people and surround yourself with the right people to make it easier?

Dr. Angela Walker:
16:58

You know, for me personally and I don't want to bring color in, but it's part of our reality, right, as a people of color, I'm fair skinned, so sometimes I don't necessarily provoke the same ideas in people or get the same response from somebody, but I think overall we as a group excelled because we found our tribe. I mean we were with each other. But our environment, I have to say, at Georgetown I think, was a positive experience. I didn't feel isolated, felt like we were, you know, part of the entire class. I think the environment there is a good place for someone of color to be. But most importantly, you find the people that are supportive of you. And we do have, I guess, now, the issue with, you know, diversity and inclusion, offices closing and the support there. But you can always find your tribe and I think that's important to come together as a group to study, to support. We did things outside of school together, potlucks, and then we were involved in medical school, in SNMA Student National Medical Association, which is which was part of the National Medical Association, you know, traditionally Black Medical Association and so we had support from faculty that may have graduated, or maybe not faculty but alumni that had graduated and came back that would support us. I certainly do recall a situation in school being kind of isolated, feeling isolated from a surgery professor who happened to be talking about my earrings being so big. We weren't in surgery, we were in a classroom setting, you know talking. But I thought to myself you feel so comfortable pointing me out and I don't. I don't see you doing that to anybody else. I have to say at the time I just felt embarrassed and didn't really internalize it. As you know I was. He was just picking on me. But I realized it later. But I think because I had so much support from outside my group and I guess maybe just the confidence that I had from, you know, growing up Black and feeling proud about it, I didn't really let that deter me from from what I wanted to do.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
19:53

I've had the experience professionally on both sides, where I've gone into the room, I've introduced myself as Dr Boykin and gone about to take care of that patient and then to come to find out they'll say, are you the nurse? And say, no, I'm Dr Boykin. And so there's almost an expectation that I couldn't be the doctor because I'm I'm Black, I'm a woman. But then, likewise, I've also had the converse when I've walked into the room and introduced myself to the patient and particularly this happens with African American patients, especially older African Americans they smile and they're so excited because they're not used to this and and are just almost that family sense, that a pride, because I'm the doctor and going to take really good care of them and so so I've seen both sides. I don't I don't take insult from it, it's, it's, it's something that happens and I redirect and let them know who I am and then proceed to do all that I do. I take care of all different races of people and nationalities and everybody's going to get the same love. But yeah, that's your, your, your statement and and thought pattern is something that we do face as as women, as African American physicians.

Richard Dodds:
21:42

It's sad to have to think about that in today's age, that you know, like I feel, like I feel it's surprising to me and the thing that kind of brought it to my forefront I know we talked about it before was that it was a picture of a bunch of Black physicians that had just graduated and they took a picture and then there were people coming on Like would you let them take care of you? And it's like they're doctors Like you don't even. You don't even think about it a lot of time. But I am glad that you brought up the pride side, just because it's always nice to have somebody when you go to the doctor that looks like you, who knows what you need, who knows your. Your place is just a. You feel like you get a different care because it's a different level of understanding. They understand that you're a person. So I think that's the beautiful side of it.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
22:31

Yes, I do agree with you.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
22:34

I'm thinking that more often than not, it's such a privilege to be a physician and overwhelmingly I have really great experiences with my patients and anytime something happens that is less than ideal or less than positive, it really gives me an opportunity to just sort of reset and to it's a reminder of, yeah, okay things are, we still have some room to grow as a country, but I have had really great allies along the way, so not all of my mentors or supporters sponsors have been been Brad folks. I've had some wonderful Caucasian males Dr Eisenberg as an example who have who were very supportive for me, and I'd like to really focus on the positive and, yes, things that are unpleasant. There are some unhappy people in the world and I always say that unhappiness is a disease and people show up in our exam rooms with everything that has happened to them before so maybe somebody kicked their dog and their car was, was hit or whatever has happened to them, and they bring all their stuff with them. I treat the patient wherever they are and if they are bringing their extra stuff in the room, okay, that's fine, but I'm still going to provide the highest quality of care for you and I'm going to really try not to hold it against you, but yeah. So I think of it as an opportunity for me to practice self compassion and to make sure that I encourage the next generation of physicians. So I look at it as an and proposition.

Richard Dodds:
24:39

That's a beautiful outlook and I know sometimes that like is a tough outlook, but I think it's such a beautiful outlook to take with you and you kind of spoke about, like, spoke about. You wanted to talk about the joy, what was like that biggest moment of joy for you, for you all, when you started in your field.

Dr. Angela Walker:
24:58

There are so many moments of joy in in my field in particular, obgyn which most people can envision right away. When you say you're OB, most people smile because you associate it with delivering babies and it's, you know, the most magical thing in the world. Really. It never got old there it does, you know. Luckily the percentage of sadness and stress is less than the percentage of joy and happiness, but it just never got old. But even beyond that, being in an office and I'll just tag along to our conversation before about you know people not accepting you as a physician, or perhaps thinking that you shouldn't be in that position, and coming from all different walks of life, backgrounds, you know race and ideologies. What I've found over the years is that you know, inherently people want to be heard and seen and so when you have, no matter how they come into your office, even those that are mad when they, you know because they've had to wait, because you had to go deliver a baby and it's been, you know, 30 minutes to 45 minutes past their appointment time you know they have that persona on them when you walk in the room. But when you sit down and ask the questions and actually listen to what they have to say and they know that you're there for them and that you're giving them your time and energy and you care. All of that tends to melt away and that was always and has always been powerful for me is just to be the person that can listen and help solve the problem and, you know, give the patient a plan that ultimately can hopefully help with their overall health and wellness. So I think that's a generalization, but it definitely is something I came out of the office with every single day, no matter what happened. Every day I had those moments and I think that's again the privilege of being a physician.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
27:22

Always enjoy the little things, and so the greatest joy is when a patient says thank you, you made me feel good. I was scared when I came into your office for a checkup and you helped me through, and it's that simple. Then I've done my job. I've done it really well. When the patient says I was scared, but I'm so glad I came in and you know we take care of whatever issue is going on, so it's that simple.

Richard Dodds:
27:57

That's beautiful.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
27:58

And I don't think I mentioned that I'm an internist, which means that I practice adult medicine and I actually only work in an inpatient setting. So I'm on what you call a hospitalist and for me I get joy every time I work, because you're in these close spaces with people and every patient is a person who has a story, and those stories I find them so fascinating and every time I'm in a room with a patient I've learned something. So maybe it's about what they do for a living, or maybe it's about food, or it's about music, because we always have these moments that both Dr Walker, dr Boykin kind of talked about just being present in the room and allowing, I think of it as a magic of happening. So you have two people that are sitting there and we're really bearing witness to their story and the only way that we can provide the best care is if we are listening and we are present. It's just because they have the same diagnosis how they got to that diagnosis, how we're going to treat them, is really based on who that person is as an individual.

Richard Dodds:
29:24

Wow, that's so important too. You forget the people. Part of it sometimes I think about. Even when going to the doctor you forget whenever you go and you get necessarily bad news or anything like that. I kind of feel compassionate for the doctor because that's a part of their day. Nobody wants to deliver bad news and I can't be mad at the doctor when you get that bad news. But sometimes we want to kill the messenger. So I even try to make sure that my mindset is, whenever I'm going to deal with a situation or somebody in my life is dealing with a situation, that I try not to take it out on the person who's delivering the information. Just because they had to deliver it. I'm sure that that's not the thing that they wanted to deliver. So for women looking to get into the medical field, what advice would you give them?

Dr. Angela Walker:
30:15

I think one of our most important points in the book, the game plan is trying to identify mentors. I think just to put the notion out there that you need to find a mentor seems daunting to a 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 year old. I've got kids that age and so they can be timid in trying to seek that out. So ask advisors. Ask if you're in college, if you go to your advisor and say, hey, I'm interested in medical school. Ask for someone that may be a mentor in that field in the community that you're in, so that you can actually have a conversation with the person. It doesn't have to be extensive. What you'll find is that people that like what they do love to talk about what they do, and so it doesn't have to. You don't have to have 20 questions prepared. Typically it's one or two, and at least I can speak for all of us. We're more than happy to share our experiences, and that's really essentially why we wrote the book. We wanted to talk to our younger selves about things we wish we had known before going into medical school and the things that we've talked about today. For example, you may be told that you can't do it, and that's because the person that told you thinks that that may be their experience. But there are people that go into medical school, come from all walks of life, some that have gone straight through from high school, college straight in, those of us that may have worked a year or two or maybe even had a full career, and those that had to take preparatory classes or post-baccalaureate programs to boost their resume to get into medical school. So I think it's important to know that if it's your dream, it can be achieved. But you have to have that in your heart. You can't let anyone tell you that you can't achieve it, because there's always a way to get it done. But I think sinking mentors and, as parents that are maybe listening, helping them to find mentors For example, those of us that have, if you're a patient and you have a physician that you go to asking that physician hey, my child is interested in medicine they perhaps talk to you for five minutes or so. I find that most of us are more than willing to give that time, even though we have super busy schedules, more than happy to help someone else bring them up along the way.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
33:07

I want everyone to be doggedly persistent at your dream. No one's going to manifest your dream except for you, and you are aware of what you're capable of. You know if you are putting in the appropriate amount of effort, but then, as Dr Walker was saying, asking for assistance from those who've already done it before. So if you're in an undergraduate situation, then even talking to your science and non-science professors because you're going to need letters of recommendations and, honestly, having a conversation with someone who's been on the earth a little bit longer, who may be able to share some useful advice, is helpful. So just be persistent. Know that you are already a physician, or you're already a dentist, or you're already an entrepreneur whatever that thing is for you and continue to move forward.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
34:20

I will just add one more small point, and that is just continue to believe in yourself.

Richard Dodds:
34:28

I feel like that is valuable, no matter what field you're trying to go into. I love that at different points, you all brought out the very positive of it, just because I feel like sometimes especially even me when I research a topic or when I'm watching the news, you tend to get hyper-focused on the negative. I feel like during this conversation, a lot of times, each of you have refocused off of the negative onto the positive, and then the negative becomes like an outlier again, and I think that is a healthy way of processing all of the massive amounts of bad information that we get on a daily basis. Like that, not as in like the information is bad, but it's negative our training on your soul and on your psyche. So I think that's beautiful and I love the fact that all three of you have done that.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
35:20

We get to choose what we focus on, and if you always focus on the negative, you're only going to see more negative. We also have the benefit of having been on the earth a little while, shall we say, and just being able to know that okay. Well, maybe this isn't my particular season or my particular moment, but if I pivot, like when Dr Walker uses that word, if I pivot and if I believe in myself, like Dr Boykin was saying, then good things can happen. And I have been fortunate enough to be surrounded by a sisterhood, so my co-authors are not simply my co-authors, they're my friends. And we actually just got back from our first girl's trip since the pandemic, since 2019, we were in Miami and we were really able to kind of recharge and to reconnect and that's really important to have people who are going to cheer you on, although they may be doing something different. Certainly, we have different specialties, we have different career paths, but I know, when I look to have someone who is going to tell me the truth but then also help me move forward and be supportive and encouraging. I have a tribe, as Dr Walker said earlier. So we want to focus on the positive, knowing that negative exists, but we are trying to be more light in the world.

Richard Dodds:
37:06

I think that's very beautiful and very important too. I want to come back to your book. The name of your book is the Gameplan A Woman's Guide to Becoming a Doctor and Living a Life in Medicine. What are some of the biggest takeaways? One I do want to note that, just because there's three African American women that wrote the book, this book is for all women. It is not just for black women.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
37:30

Five. We have five authors, five authors, five authors. Yeah, we're leaving by the end. Apologize, apologize. Dr Leah Matthews and Dr Jessica Osborn are also the other co-authors Apologize.

Richard Dodds:
37:42

So just because you see so many beautiful black women writing this book does not mean it is just for black women. What are some of the biggest takeaways that people can expect to find in reading this book? And is it just for women, or is there a takeaway that men would be able to find from reading it as well?

Dr. Angela Walker:
38:04

Yeah, I think that I'll just name one of the biggest ones you'll find in the book is that we're just real. We're real people, real lives, and we give a lot of texture to the process of becoming a physician. So we give you a game plan, a step-by-step process, but a lot of inside information, if you will, about our lives, about our journey individually, whether it be with family friends, as caretakers for our parents, but also the values of friendships which we talk about a lot in our book. So giving a lot of context and individual experience, I think, is one thing that sets this book apart from a typical manual on how to go to medical school and how to become a physician.

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
39:07

And when you inquire about sort of the message for men, so certainly we want men to purchase our book For men who are interested in going to medical school. This also works because we've talked a lot about mentorship and sponsorship. If you want to pivot during your career. We talk about once you finish medical school and you're in training and have some tips on how to navigate the postgraduate world and the early career world as well. But the other message I think for men is just the ability for them to continue to be allies for their girlfriend, wife, sister, niece who is embarking on a career in medicine. Uncle William is my favorite uncle. He will tell you he's my only uncle, but that's beside the point. He's my favorite uncle and he has always been in my corner, and certainly my parents were always there as well. But when I think about if I needed something during med school or especially early in my career when I was making pivots every couple years, shall we say, he was always my sounding board. So there will be men who are also really great encouragers and able to kind of help move us along the path. So we thank them for that.

Dr. Diane Boykin:
40:51

I think both of the authors have said everything, so I don't have anything else to add to that point.

Richard Dodds:
40:58

Okay, I always like as a man, I always try to see like a woman's point of view, just because everybody has a unique set of things that they have to deal with, and I just want to make sure I know what those things are so I can be supportive in those areas. So, for me, like that, I think you hit it right on the head, like, yeah, so like, guys, go get the book too. Like, if you want to support, support the women in your lives, we want to go into medicine. So, again, I want to thank all three of you for coming on the show. Is there anything else before we wrap up that any of you want to say, or any last thoughts?

Dr. Sylvia Morris:
41:36

Certainly, if you have not yet purchased the book, but now you are interested, you can go to Amazon. Our book is available on Amazon for purchase and also our website, adjlslccom, and thank you very much for having us. This has been a great conversation. Thank you, thank you.

Richard Dodds:
41:58

I'll make sure that I put everything all in the show notes. So if you want to click the link to go get that book on Amazon, it'll be right there for you. Well, thank you all again. I appreciate you coming on the show.

Dr. Angela Walker:
42:10

Thank you for the opportunity.

Richard Dodds:
42:12

Thank you. Thank you Again. I would like to thank all three of the doctors for coming on the show. You can find out more information about them in the show notes. Still talking black is a Crown Culture Media LLC production. You can find out more about it at stilltalkinblackcom. But until next time, keep talking.